Episode 69

Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age – With Guest Kate Bravery | HR 69

Episode Intro:

Kate Bravery is co-author of the recently published book, Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age. If the “10 Truths” headings: “Goodbye employees, hello contributors”, “Stressed out, burnt out and quietly quitting”, “It doesn’t pay to stay”, “Purpose rules and empathy wins”, “Trust and accountability are a team sport”, “The new rhythm of work”, “Skills are the real currency of work”, “Supply is unchained”, “Intelligence is getting amplified”, and “Sustainability starts with people”, don’t pique your curiosity, the impact of AI, ESG, and the very vocal expectations of our younger generations, are certain to.


Lots of interesting research and insights - wherever you are in your role overseeing people within your organization – hope you will join us!


About Kate Bravery:


Kate is a Corporate Psychologist and Mercer’s Global Talent Advisory Leader. She is a Senior Partner with 25 years of experience advising executives on Global Talent Trends and the future of work. She is a UK Chartered Occupational Psychologist with an MSc. in Organizational Psychology and an MBA. She has expertise in people strategy, talent management, assessment/leadership development and HR process design.


Kate commenced her career with American Express where she focused on new employee orientation and its impact on cultural integration. Her interest in cross-cultural leadership and decision making have been constants throughout her career.


Her technical background lies in people strategy, design of talent management solutions, organizational development, performance and succession management systems, assessment and high potential development, as well as career architecture and job levelling.


Connect with Kate:


Email:           kate.bravery@mercer.com


LinkedIn:      Kate Bravery | LinkedIn


Book: Work Different: 10 Truths for Winning in the People Age: Bravery, Kate, Bonic, Ilya, Anderson, Kai: 9781394181292: Amazon.com: Books


About the Host:

Susan has worked with people all her life. As a human resource professional, she has specialized in all aspects of employment, from hiring to retirement. She got her start as a national representative for a large Canadian union. After pursuing an undergrad degree in business administration, Susan transitioned to HR management, where she aspired to bring

both employee and management perspectives to her work. Susan holds a Master of Arts degree in Leadership and Training. She retired from her multi-decade career in HR to pursue writing and consulting, and to be able, in her words, to “colour outside the lines.” She promises some fun and lots of learning through this podcast series. 

Susan is also the author of the book Leadership Inside Out: Effecting Change from

Within available on Amazon – click below. 

Leadership Inside Out: Effecting Change from Within: Ney, Susan G: 9781777030162: Books - Amazon.ca


If you wish to contact Susan, she can be reached through any of the following:

Website:          Home - Effecting Change from Within

Email:               susangney@gmail.com

Linked In:         www.linkedin.com/in/susan-ney-197494

Facebook:        www.facebook.com/susan.ney.5/

Phone:            (604) 341-5643


Thanks for listening!

It means so much that you listened to this podcast!  If you know of anyone else who might find this series of interest, please share. If you have questions about this episode, please send me an email at susangney@gmail.com


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Transcript
Susan Ney:

Hi, welcome to the podcast HR inside out. I'm your

Susan Ney:

host is Rene and I'm absolutely delighted to welcome our guest

Susan Ney:

Kate bravery to our time together today. Kate's one of

Susan Ney:

the co authors of the recently published book, work different

Susan Ney:

10 truths for winning in the people age. It is absolutely

Susan Ney:

excellent. When I would highly recommend you consider reading

Susan Ney:

and one that we're going to be delving into today. Welcome,

Susan Ney:

Kate.

Kate Bravery:

Well, it's great to be here. Susan, I'm really

Kate Bravery:

been excited about coming on your show. So thank you so much

Kate Bravery:

for inviting me.

Susan Ney:

Thank you. Now first a little bit about you for our

Susan Ney:

listeners. Kate is let me go. I just want to share how wonderful

Susan Ney:

you are, first of all, Kate's a corporate psychologist and a

Susan Ney:

Mercer's Global Advisory solutions and insights leader.

Susan Ney:

She's a senior partner with 25 years of experience advising

Susan Ney:

executives on global talent trends in the future of work.

Susan Ney:

She's UK chartered occupational psychologist with an MSc in

Susan Ney:

occupational or sorry, Organizational Psychology, and

Susan Ney:

an MBA. She has expertise in people strategy, talent

Susan Ney:

management, assessment and leadership development and HR

Susan Ney:

process design. Kate commenced her career with American Express

Susan Ney:

where she focused on new employee orientation and its

Susan Ney:

impact on culture and integration. Her interests in

Susan Ney:

cross cultural leadership and decision making had been

Susan Ney:

constant throughout her career. Her technical background lies in

Susan Ney:

people strategy, design of talent management solutions,

Susan Ney:

organizational development, performance and succession

Susan Ney:

management systems, assessment and high potential development,

Susan Ney:

as well as career architecture and job leveling. Wow. Kate is

Susan Ney:

currently living and speaking to us from Brighton in the United

Susan Ney:

Kingdom. Let's dive right in if that's okay with you.

Kate Bravery:

Yeah, absolutely. This isn't just listening to

Kate Bravery:

that list of things. I think that says just how old I am more

Kate Bravery:

than anything else. I have been around for a while and done this

Kate Bravery:

for a while. But

Susan Ney:

I don't know about that. But certainly why it's so

Susan Ney:

keen, I'd like to actually start my questions in the back of the

Susan Ney:

book. And where are you summarize your data with what

Susan Ney:

you term as the 10 truths for winning in what you term as the

Susan Ney:

people age? Now, the first of these is good by employees.

Susan Ney:

Hello, contributors. Can you tell us more about this?

Kate Bravery:

Yes, absolutely. You know, it was interesting,

Kate Bravery:

because when we were thinking of writing the book, we just come

Kate Bravery:

out of the pandemic. And I think everybody was recognizing that

Kate Bravery:

everyone has taken the moment that, that pause, to reflect on

Kate Bravery:

their work. And one of my truths that I learned during this

Kate Bravery:

period was no one wants to work for you, doesn't matter how good

Kate Bravery:

your paying compensation your benefits are, doesn't matter how

Kate Bravery:

inspiring your culture is, no one wants to work for you. They

Kate Bravery:

do want you to work with them. And that for me, it was the seed

Kate Bravery:

of the shift that we've seen, from what we call an employee

Kate Bravery:

mindset, to a contributor mindset, that let me just give

Kate Bravery:

you a flavor of some of the things we not only observed

Kate Bravery:

inside our company, but we started to see in our research,

Kate Bravery:

the employee mindset is work life balance, you and I know

Kate Bravery:

about it, you know, I'll shift my life to fit around the

Kate Bravery:

companies and, you know, I'm doing that juggling act. You

Kate Bravery:

know, I want to long you know, our long term career, you know,

Kate Bravery:

I expect to be trained for my job and, and then I will be re

Kate Bravery:

skilled. And, you know, I'll do my time, I'll climb my ladder.

Kate Bravery:

And, you know, I will to a certain degree work within the

Kate Bravery:

lines. And also, I want to know, what is the company culture, and

Kate Bravery:

that will fit in with that. And that's what we grew up on. And

Kate Bravery:

yet what I'm now seeing, I have the privilege of doing vs global

Kate Bravery:

talent trends study every year, what I'm now seeing is, the new

Kate Bravery:

generation coming in just has a really different perspective.

Kate Bravery:

They don't work life balance, they want lifestyle integration.

Kate Bravery:

They are, you know, if you want me to bring my best self to

Kate Bravery:

work, it needs to fit around some of my life objectives. And

Kate Bravery:

they don't want that long term career path. They want to know

Kate Bravery:

what's next now, and they want to be valued for the skills they

Kate Bravery:

bring today. They don't see their worth being defined by

Kate Bravery:

career levels and roles. There's a little bit of that, but they

Kate Bravery:

expect that their worth is defined by their contribution.

Kate Bravery:

They also want to contribute more than just profit. And

Kate Bravery:

that's a really big theme this year we see in the data, and

Kate Bravery:

they want to shake things up, you know, they want to play an

Kate Bravery:

active role in shaping the values of the company and

Kate Bravery:

impacting its culture. And I think that's really vibrant and

Kate Bravery:

exciting. But boy, are we underprepared. Yeah, to respond

Kate Bravery:

to that new way of working and that new set of expectations

Kate Bravery:

that are on managers.

Susan Ney:

And that's the contribution. Yeah, that's a

Susan Ney:

contributor.

Kate Bravery:

And you know what we wrote this about a year ago

Kate Bravery:

now, and we've just released this year's global talent Trends

Kate Bravery:

report. And it really reflects that shift because we ask every

Kate Bravery:

year Yeah, it's about 14,000 voices around the world, what

Kate Bravery:

helps you thrive. And this year, the number one is what helps me

Kate Bravery:

thrive is a sense of purpose, a sense of belonging, feeling

Kate Bravery:

valued for my contribution, and being able to contribute beyond

Kate Bravery:

just that profit. So we have seen that shift. And these were

Kate Bravery:

the things at the top of the list when you are not at the

Kate Bravery:

peak of our career.

Susan Ney:

You know, it's interesting, they may not have

Susan Ney:

been at the top of the list. But I think probably as important,

Susan Ney:

we just weren't in a position to, or we didn't articulate

Susan Ney:

that, or, you know, we were just not prepared

Kate Bravery:

to Susan, I agree with you. We just weren't so

Kate Bravery:

vocal on this. And the other thing I've been fascinated by

Kate Bravery:

and I know this links into the chapter on stressed out burnout,

Kate Bravery:

and quietly quitting is the Gen Zed, how vocal they are on

Kate Bravery:

health and well being and mental health. And I agree with you. I

Kate Bravery:

don't think that wasn't there before. It's just we didn't talk

Kate Bravery:

about it. Yeah,

Susan Ney:

yeah. Well, it's interesting because your second

Susan Ney:

truth is stressed out, burnt out and quietly quitting. And I

Susan Ney:

certainly wasn't surprised to see the stressed out and burnt

Susan Ney:

out pieces, particularly the impact of the pandemic. But this

Susan Ney:

quiet quitting intrigued me and you shared in the book, The

Susan Ney:

Gallup estimates that half of us employees are already close to

Susan Ney:

quiet quitting. That's a really somber second truth. And I

Susan Ney:

suspect just it's not just pertinent with the younger

Susan Ney:

generations of workers. What, what have you found to be the

Susan Ney:

major contributors of this quiet quitting, and for our listeners,

Susan Ney:

quite quitting as a worker putting in the jobs, minimum

Susan Ney:

requirements and to know more?

Kate Bravery:

You know, what's interesting, I mean, you just

Kate Bravery:

mentioned there, the whole stressed out, burnt out and

Kate Bravery:

quietly quitting. And I can just tell you, one of the press, that

Kate Bravery:

burnout rate has actually gone up this year globally. So we are

Kate Bravery:

not heading in the right direction before the pandemic,

Kate Bravery:

it was down to the low 60% of people felt they might be at

Kate Bravery:

risk of burnout this year. Straight off the pandemic,

Kate Bravery:

because we are always working in new ways of working at Shut up

Kate Bravery:

to 80s. And now in the US is 84%. That is staggering. And 40%

Kate Bravery:

of the workforce in the USA 39% globally 49 40% In the US, that

Kate Bravery:

work is fundamentally broken. So we've got some problems that we

Kate Bravery:

need to fix. And the book is not pessimistic, I think the books

Kate Bravery:

very optimistic. But this one particular particularly, I

Kate Bravery:

think, is a really intriguing phenomenon because it was coined

Kate Bravery:

when you had people speaking on Tik Tok and others about if I'm

Kate Bravery:

not basically getting a fair deal, and the psychological

Kate Bravery:

contract with my boss or the company is broken, I'm going to

Kate Bravery:

do the bare minimum I need. And it's almost the flip side of

Kate Bravery:

that. employee advocacy that we were just saying, and we were

Kate Bravery:

just saying, This Shut up, and we're praising. But it's when it

Kate Bravery:

when it goes over too much to the point that you cannot

Kate Bravery:

embrace some of the exciting technological transformation

Kate Bravery:

that's happening, because you've got a workforce that's putting

Kate Bravery:

the brakes on, that is really the bare minimum. And I think

Kate Bravery:

there's a few things that are feeding into it. Either one

Kate Bravery:

thing that's come up as having a really big impact on people's

Kate Bravery:

intent to stay, their engagement, their sense of

Kate Bravery:

thriving, not being at risk of burnout is trust, how much they

Kate Bravery:

trust their manager, how much they trust the organization to

Kate Bravery:

do the right thing by society, and more recently, how much they

Kate Bravery:

trust, senior leadership to make good business decisions. Now,

Kate Bravery:

this is a very different relationship that employees are

Kate Bravery:

having with their work. And one of the things we asked in our

Kate Bravery:

recent study is what erodes trust, because we have seen that

Kate Bravery:

trust has dropped quite a bit this year. And when it drops,

Kate Bravery:

you get a number of things, you get people taking more time off,

Kate Bravery:

but you also get this quiet quitting phenomenon. And what

Kate Bravery:

they said was, number one, broken promises. So we're flip

Kate Bravery:

flops on things like flexible working. Number two, frequent

Kate Bravery:

org changes, you know, you and I know there's going to be more of

Kate Bravery:

them happening this year, an unfair treatment. And the unfair

Kate Bravery:

treatment is interesting, because we also said to people,

Kate Bravery:

why do you stay with your company this year, we have

Kate Bravery:

listed 20 items and what has shot up into the top position.

Kate Bravery:

fair pay, not absolute pay, fair pay, and it's not a surprise

Kate Bravery:

we've got pay transparency laws coming in across the US. We've

Kate Bravery:

got pay equity laws, we've now got new sustainability reporting

Kate Bravery:

in the EU. You can actually just reach into your pocket, grab out

Kate Bravery:

your whatever your check GBT is and say how much I pay pay for

Kate Bravery:

this. We are living in a world where people's worth is very

Kate Bravery:

clear. We've had more people go on strike in the last few years

Kate Bravery:

than we have seen in decades. People pool are feeling the

Kate Bravery:

pinch of the cost of living. They're evaluated, whether

Kate Bravery:

they're getting a fair deal, and when they don't feel they're

Kate Bravery:

getting a fair deal they're putting the brakes on. And I

Kate Bravery:

think that lower engagement and that preparedness just to not

Kate Bravery:

put in that time or go, what we would say above and beyond, is a

Kate Bravery:

real risk. Because when people are in the right role that fits

Kate Bravery:

their motivation, and they're inspired. You get all of that

Kate Bravery:

great thing. And I'm not saying we all have to be workaholics

Kate Bravery:

and work crazy hours. But we're not clock watching. Because

Kate Bravery:

we're actually thinking, Oh, my gosh, how much of this great

Kate Bravery:

work? Can I get done? Before I'm clocking off, as opposed to? How

Kate Bravery:

much do I need to churn for until I can kind of close my

Kate Bravery:

laptop, that's a different mindset. And we need more of

Kate Bravery:

that in our organizations. And, you know, when we look at trust,

Kate Bravery:

we know that, you know, trust goes both ways. We have to be

Kate Bravery:

trust people, and we have to be trustworthy. Flexible Working

Kate Bravery:

was a good experiment around that. But you know, and trust is

Kate Bravery:

reciprocal, if you give trust you gain trust. If we want our

Kate Bravery:

organizations to be dynamic and responsive, we have to defer

Kate Bravery:

more power to a workers which requires trust, but they also

Kate Bravery:

need some guardrails as to route to, what does that look like?

Kate Bravery:

Particularly this generation that didn't get socialized in

Kate Bravery:

the same way you and I got socialized? And, and that I

Kate Bravery:

think has led to some, some issues. And, and we do know that

Kate Bravery:

it, we want to build that trust and reduce the incidences of

Kate Bravery:

quiet quitting. You know, we need to show competence as

Kate Bravery:

business leaders, we need to show benevolence doing the right

Kate Bravery:

thing by our people. And we need to show integrity, which has

Kate Bravery:

been a lot more honest and transparent. And that includes

Kate Bravery:

about some of the equity gaps that maybe we haven't made as

Kate Bravery:

much progress on in the past.

Susan Ney:

Lot for organizations to be contending with and

Susan Ney:

understandably, really important.

Kate Bravery:

Yeah, absolutely. And there is a lot to contend

Kate Bravery:

with. I think the most important thing this year is setting a few

Kate Bravery:

clear goals, being vocal about them, and staying the course on

Kate Bravery:

them. Because you're right, we're living in a much more

Kate Bravery:

complex world. And there's a lot of issues to tackle.

Susan Ney:

While that, yes, yes. And I've thought of many, many

Susan Ney:

things as you've been talking, and we could make this podcast

Susan Ney:

three hours. So I'm, hopefully going to touch them and some of

Susan Ney:

the other truths, get passionate about the book. And one of one

Susan Ney:

of them was passion. Because I know when I've worked with a

Susan Ney:

team that I think I know, I've called a team that just hummed.

Susan Ney:

And it was just, it was just such a pleasure to work with the

Susan Ney:

individuals, we love the work we were doing, and it made such a

Susan Ney:

difference. So, you know, as

Kate Bravery:

a team is quite quitting, or if they're

Kate Bravery:

inspired, because you can feel it, you can smell it, you can

Kate Bravery:

see it. And it's so invigorating, and it transcends

Kate Bravery:

culture, gender generations. And we need to get that right.

Kate Bravery:

Particularly, when, you know, we're ushering in a new age of

Kate Bravery:

human machine teaming, which is exciting and scary at the same

Kate Bravery:

time.

Susan Ney:

And we're gonna get into some of that, that new

Susan Ney:

technology a little bit later in the podcast. The third truth is

Susan Ney:

that it doesn't pay to stay. And you do talk about a number of

Susan Ney:

positives for the individual, such as the gaining of new

Susan Ney:

experiences through the those kinds of moves. But man, that's

Susan Ney:

tough on organizations. Yeah, just, you know, the whole

Susan Ney:

retention, recruitment, retention challenge. The

Susan Ney:

colleagues left behind the impact on them. Your thoughts?

Susan Ney:

It's one of the truths of this paper.

Kate Bravery:

For Mercer, which is basically the largest

Kate Bravery:

conversation firm in the world. It was an unusual, I think

Kate Bravery:

chapter for us to, to kind of get out there. But the, you

Kate Bravery:

know, the reason why we ended up having this chapter was because

Kate Bravery:

myself and my co authors were actually in airport, and we

Kate Bravery:

overheard somebody who I think worked in HR, basically, on the

Kate Bravery:

end of the phone talking about this issue. And they were

Kate Bravery:

saying, you know, I know we can't hold on to our people. I

Kate Bravery:

know that they're leaving, they were saying, there's nothing we

Kate Bravery:

can do. Yes, you know, we've got a good brand and good training

Kate Bravery:

when they come in. But we don't give them you know, long term

Kate Bravery:

benefits. We don't share our equity. You know, there isn't

Kate Bravery:

much of an incentive for them to stay past two years. And then

Kate Bravery:

the peaceful resistance, they started to say, actually, I

Kate Bravery:

worry more about the people who stay rather than the people who

Kate Bravery:

go because the people who stay are the ones that don't have the

Kate Bravery:

confidence to go elsewhere. And obviously, myself and my

Kate Bravery:

colleagues because we work in HR, you know, started listening

Kate Bravery:

into this thinking, Gosh, when did we get this so wrong that a

Kate Bravery:

people leader or an HR leader is resigned to The fact that that

Kate Bravery:

compensation planning is kind of tying their hands. And so we did

Kate Bravery:

a bit of research to have a look at well actually, does it pay to

Kate Bravery:

stay? If I was a switcher, rather than a Stayer? Do I end

Kate Bravery:

up earning more or less? And so on first blush, you are

Kate Bravery:

absolutely right. And I think in 2023, those that left got 16.4%,

Kate Bravery:

average pay change. And that was a lot higher than what it was

Kate Bravery:

3.8 that you got for people who stayed. So on first blush,

Kate Bravery:

particularly in certain markets, like the US. You can earn more

Kate Bravery:

by job hopping. And is that really what we want to respond?

Kate Bravery:

Do we really not value loyalty, we did another piece of research

Kate Bravery:

that showed, if you have a more tenured member of the team who

Kate Bravery:

has been with the organization, 1520 25 years, they actually

Kate Bravery:

have a positive impact on people staying not just with the people

Kate Bravery:

around them, how they have a positive impact on the Gen Zeds.

Kate Bravery:

And the Gen Xers wise as well. So there really is something to

Kate Bravery:

this. And of course, it is cheeky, because actually, we

Kate Bravery:

believe that when you stay, you build social capital, when you

Kate Bravery:

stay, a lot of the psychological safety, you know, can be built

Kate Bravery:

up and are where we innovate, it doesn't pay to stay in your

Kate Bravery:

current role for too long. And Arkfall is for greater urgency

Kate Bravery:

in building more vibrant talent marketplaces, moving people

Kate Bravery:

around quicker. And dare I say, moving people out of fixed jobs

Kate Bravery:

into either flex or flow roles. What I mean by that is, a

Kate Bravery:

proportion of their time can be spent on learning or internal

Kate Bravery:

gigs, or fully flow roles. Because the reality is, we're

Kate Bravery:

literally running out of people, we don't have enough talent to

Kate Bravery:

meet our future needs. And that's without even putting on

Kate Bravery:

the demographic time bomb that is happening. And so we have to

Kate Bravery:

value our human resources a lot more than we have in the past.

Kate Bravery:

And we need to build more agile talent models, so they can

Kate Bravery:

contribute in more ways quicker. And you know what the

Kate Bravery:

interesting thing is, they stay longer when you do that, Oh,

Kate Bravery:

absolutely. One of the big reason they're leaving, is

Kate Bravery:

because they gotta wait a whole year until I can be considered

Kate Bravery:

for a promotion. I don't want this retrospective performance

Kate Bravery:

management engine dictating my future, I'd rather get out and

Kate Bravery:

do something else. We also see that many of the young people

Kate Bravery:

want to have gigs on the side. And there's some really

Kate Bravery:

progressive companies in the book that are figuring out how

Kate Bravery:

to do that, and how to reward loyalty. But yeah, it's it's one

Kate Bravery:

of those truths that many people in HR know, that hasn't figured

Kate Bravery:

out yet how to fix. And AI is actually playing a role in

Kate Bravery:

helping us kind of personalized packages and fix some of that,

Kate Bravery:

so that we don't get inequity between hire people who come in,

Kate Bravery:

and people who've stayed, as well as between the genders.

Susan Ney:

I think it's really important for organizations to

Susan Ney:

become more creative, and in figuring out those growth

Susan Ney:

opportunities. And I am going to be asking about AI a little bit

Susan Ney:

further on. So why don't we hold that that piece for a little bit

Susan Ney:

later? The the fourth truth, it talks about that purpose rules

Susan Ney:

and empathy wins. And you've talked a little bit about it

Susan Ney:

already about how critical it is for articulation of a purpose

Susan Ney:

that people can believe in. And the importance of alignment of

Susan Ney:

decisions with that purpose. Oh, how true that purpose and

Susan Ney:

cultural alignment have never been more important. Are you

Susan Ney:

seeing that that's finally being recognized and the work that you

Susan Ney:

do with with the organizations who work with

Kate Bravery:

you know, what, I actually believe we are seeing a

Kate Bravery:

big shift on this than we have in the past. We saw a bigger

Kate Bravery:

shift last year, when when the labor market was a little bit

Kate Bravery:

different. I think when the labor market when people don't

Kate Bravery:

trust the labor market and that they'll get another job, then I

Kate Bravery:

think it swings a bit more to the employer, but I think we are

Kate Bravery:

seeing really good strides on that one. We are seeing

Kate Bravery:

employees asking the companies to come off mute on what they

Kate Bravery:

stand for. We have seen that this year. executives have said

Kate Bravery:

the one area we have to make progress on is around ESG and

Kate Bravery:

sustainability reporting. And that was global. And that really

Kate Bravery:

surprised me because it does have a political undertone. Yes.

Kate Bravery:

And I also have heard anecdotally in the report that

Kate Bravery:

many managers say I have to be able to answer questions about

Kate Bravery:

what are we doing in the markets we operate? How much does the

Kate Bravery:

diversity of our workforce represent them? What is the

Kate Bravery:

gender balance in senior leadership? I get questions

Kate Bravery:

around our board diversity, I get questions on what we're

Kate Bravery:

doing around net zero. I don't know about you, I didn't ask

Kate Bravery:

that of a prospective employer. But that is the reality we're

Kate Bravery:

in. So I think the younger generation being as vocal as we

Kate Bravery:

started off this conversation, saying they are beginning to

Kate Bravery:

say, there's, there's nowhere to hide. Now you've had investors

Kate Bravery:

over the last few years really putting a focus on kind of the

Kate Bravery:

environmental side of ESG. They really switched attention now to

Kate Bravery:

the s. And so they're looking for more sustainable people

Kate Bravery:

models, they're looking at progress on di, they're looking

Kate Bravery:

at human capital disclosures around equity and fair pay all

Kate Bravery:

these topics we've just been talking about. That's put that

Kate Bravery:

on the corporate agenda. And I think that's quite exciting. The

Kate Bravery:

other thing is, young people want to be part of that. And so

Kate Bravery:

more and more, they're asking for proportion of their work to

Kate Bravery:

be in some of these social responsibility areas. And that

Kate Bravery:

also, I think, is giving some momentum to organizations on

Kate Bravery:

this agenda, we still got a long way to go. And don't get me

Kate Bravery:

wrong. But I do think how an organization translates its

Kate Bravery:

values into things like inclusive benefits, is a

Kate Bravery:

conversation that just wasn't happening five years ago, you

Kate Bravery:

know, what do we mean? What are we doing for same sex marriages?

Kate Bravery:

What are we doing for women's reproductive health? What are we

Kate Bravery:

doing with regard to living wage around the world? Do we care

Kate Bravery:

about these topics? And if so, what does that mean for the

Kate Bravery:

total reward package we offer? And I think that's exciting.

Susan Ney:

Also an opportunity for some of those creative

Susan Ney:

opportunities within organizations to involve

Susan Ney:

employees in in some of those reach outs, some of the

Susan Ney:

community engagement involvement. So very, very

Susan Ney:

positive send you as you say, the book has got a lot of

Susan Ney:

positives and lots of really great ideas. You talk a lot

Susan Ney:

about empathy and the book and the importance of it. And that's

Susan Ney:

about walking, understanding what it means to walk in someone

Susan Ney:

else's shoes. It seems that you found this to be a really

Susan Ney:

critical piece. And I think we're going to move into some

Susan Ney:

examples and some of the other truths, but talk a little bit

Susan Ney:

more about empathy and and how important that's been.

Kate Bravery:

But I think we all learn about empathy. During the

Kate Bravery:

pandemic, we started to see the person behind the machine, the

Kate Bravery:

job, the Zoom tile, and that was really positive. I also think

Kate Bravery:

executives learn to be humble and transparent, even when they

Kate Bravery:

didn't have the answer, or good things. Now, as we face economic

Kate Bravery:

headwinds and tailwinds, and we need to tighten our belts, we

Kate Bravery:

need to make sure that we've balanced that empathy with

Kate Bravery:

economics. And I think the two do go together. You just

Kate Bravery:

mentioned there about, you know, we've talked about ESG and Dei,

Kate Bravery:

you know, we've got to make sure that we're not just a fair

Kate Bravery:

weather organization, and we invest in those things when

Kate Bravery:

we've got abundance, and we pull back on them when we don't,

Kate Bravery:

that's a real risk for your talent, attraction and

Kate Bravery:

retention. You know, therefore, balancing economics and empathy,

Kate Bravery:

for me is saying, every time we talk about our corporate goals,

Kate Bravery:

it's not just our profit, and our revenue goals we talk about,

Kate Bravery:

we talk about what are our goals with regard to society, to the

Kate Bravery:

environment, to employees to customers, and making firm

Kate Bravery:

commitments on them in exactly the same way we will on our

Kate Bravery:

financial areas. We did some work a number of years ago,

Kate Bravery:

which is in the book with the World Economic Forum on what

Kate Bravery:

constitutes good work, and urging companies to set bold

Kate Bravery:

goals. By 2030. We will upskill X employees to keep them

Kate Bravery:

employable. By 2035, we will ensure flexible working for all,

Kate Bravery:

by 2025. We will ensure living wage by all these are some of

Kate Bravery:

the commitments that I think help organizations deliver on

Kate Bravery:

that promise of stakeholder capitalism. Hold them

Kate Bravery:

accountable for for making sure. And I know we're going to touch

Kate Bravery:

on that. As we bring in new opportunities with AI. They

Kate Bravery:

actually benefit the humans in our organization, and benefit

Kate Bravery:

society. And I think keeping an eye on that is more important

Kate Bravery:

now than it's ever been. So I do think balancing economic and

Kate Bravery:

Empathy means some tough work about building in those other

Kate Bravery:

goals into your life. In else, and galvanizing the organization

Kate Bravery:

to make progress on them in the same way that we have in the

Kate Bravery:

past on the purely corporate or shareholder agenda.

Susan Ney:

Just for our listeners, the good work

Susan Ney:

framework, as outlined by the World Economic Forum lists five

Susan Ney:

elements of what they term good work, it's probably a good good

Susan Ney:

place to insert this. These being and they are wonderful, a

Susan Ney:

healthy, equitable, resilient and human centric future of

Susan Ney:

work, respecting fundamental rights across in person hybrid

Susan Ney:

and virtual work for all workers. That's a pretty

Susan Ney:

wonderful thing to aspire to.

Kate Bravery:

It is and I know that there's about 30 companies

Kate Bravery:

that have signed up with goals on there. And there's some

Kate Bravery:

really innovative ones in the in the health and wellbeing space

Kate Bravery:

where people have said, year on year, we want to reduce stress

Kate Bravery:

related illnesses by one or 2%. And when we've got non

Kate Bravery:

communicable diseases rising, we've got the stress incidences

Kate Bravery:

that we were talking about earlier, we've got young

Kate Bravery:

generations impacted by physical and mental health. sending some

Kate Bravery:

of those bold goals I think, demonstrates that you care back

Kate Bravery:

to what builds trust, what ensures that you don't get quiet

Kate Bravery:

quitting, it's all the things we've just been chatting about.

Susan Ney:

And it's the alignment to, you know, setting

Susan Ney:

a purpose and making decisions that are actually consistent.

Kate Bravery:

Make sure that the EVP promises, actually the lived

Kate Bravery:

experience, and that is really important, and that it's

Kate Bravery:

congruent between your customer brand experience and your

Kate Bravery:

internal brand experience. And there's some good examples in

Kate Bravery:

the book of I think, who's getting that right. And where

Kate Bravery:

there might be some some misses. Because, you know, we live in a

Kate Bravery:

transparent social media world, you know, people sniff that out

Kate Bravery:

pretty quick. Yeah,

Susan Ney:

absolutely. And it's something that people talk about

Susan Ney:

around the water cooler and the pubs. So it's, it's the

Susan Ney:

transparency is certainly broader with with what the

Susan Ney:

reality is. The next truth is trust and accountability. We've

Susan Ney:

talked about about that. The importance of that delivering

Susan Ney:

psychological safety, the climate of learning innovation,

Susan Ney:

I think we've probably touched on that sufficiently. So I'm

Susan Ney:

gonna move to the sixth truth, which talks about the new rhythm

Susan Ney:

of work. And I, there were a couple of points under this

Susan Ney:

truth that I want to delve into. And again, we've touched on it,

Susan Ney:

but I want to go deeper, that if we want to inspire the next

Susan Ney:

generation, in our workplaces, we need to redesign workplaces

Susan Ney:

around their diverse needs and interests, tackling head on what

Susan Ney:

demotivates them disengagement and disengages them, and you

Susan Ney:

talk about the need to flex loudly. I love that term. And I

Susan Ney:

think you've you've talked about flex what's flex loudly? And

Susan Ney:

this individual interests being critical importance. And again,

Susan Ney:

there's that empathy piece that comes into it, because it's

Susan Ney:

about recognizing what those are for the individual. Yes, what's

Susan Ney:

flex loudly and an example of an exam. That's done effectively.

Kate Bravery:

You know, I think, Gosh, we've all been obsessed

Kate Bravery:

with flexible working, have returned to Office ever since

Kate Bravery:

the pandemic period. You know, first, that wonderful digital

Kate Bravery:

experiment, where before the pandemic, very few leaders

Kate Bravery:

thought we could ever work remotely, and then their eyes

Kate Bravery:

were opened, and then none of us wanted to come back. You know, I

Kate Bravery:

know I'm only talking about a segment of society here. But

Kate Bravery:

boy, we've been on a journey on this. And you're right, flexible

Kate Bravery:

working does relate to some of the other topics we've talked

Kate Bravery:

about, such as trust and just getting enough agility into our

Kate Bravery:

workplaces. And in the book we talk about when we consider

Kate Bravery:

flexible working, let's move away from just talking about

Kate Bravery:

where you work, because it's not about being on site, off site or

Kate Bravery:

hybrid, particularly as we want to get flexible working

Kate Bravery:

happening for non knowledge workers and frontline workers

Kate Bravery:

who are pretty fed up during the pandemic didn't have that

Kate Bravery:

option. You know, and we in the book introduced the six

Kate Bravery:

dimensions of flexible working that we have Mercer evaluate

Kate Bravery:

each jobs potential on and AI is a big part of that how if we

Kate Bravery:

look at how tasks could be allocated to AI, you could

Kate Bravery:

actually reduce certain dependencies and allow for more

Kate Bravery:

flexible working, but the flex loudly is whatever your company

Kate Bravery:

policy is. If there are times when you are flexing out of

Kate Bravery:

work, be because, you know, you like to take Friday mornings off

Kate Bravery:

to play golf. And you know, you've worked that into your

Kate Bravery:

schedule, and that's fine. Talk about it, you know, share with

Kate Bravery:

people that you're doing that if you are working a full shortened

Kate Bravery:

week where you've taken a 20% pay cut or a 10% pay cut, and

Kate Bravery:

you're doing a nine day fortnight, don't hide that I

Kate Bravery:

think what's been happening is we've got lots of exceptions.

Kate Bravery:

And there are exceptions for very good reasons, but no one is

Kate Bravery:

talking about it. And then you have a situation of the haves

Kate Bravery:

and have nots, and people don't really understand why. What this

Kate Bravery:

period has forced us to do is to set some really good rules and

Kate Bravery:

expectations about when you need to be in the office, when you

Kate Bravery:

need to be out of the office, which jobs should flex which job

Kate Bravery:

shouldn't flex, how we can think about the how work is being done

Kate Bravery:

and who does the work, and shifts and sheduled. You know, a

Kate Bravery:

lot of the things that went out of fashion, like job sharing

Kate Bravery:

really support people with children at home. The

Kate Bravery:

opportunity to go down to a three day workweek really

Kate Bravery:

supports people who want to phase retirement, there are lots

Kate Bravery:

of benefits of thinking really creatively, as opposed to the

Kate Bravery:

more Sledgehammer approach. And here's what's interesting this

Kate Bravery:

year, in our global talent trends study, we asked how many

Kate Bravery:

companies last year made changes to flexible working and how many

Kate Bravery:

more make changes this year. Spoiler alert, about half of

Kate Bravery:

still making changes. So we haven't landed. But 32% went

Kate Bravery:

towards more flexible working and 10% encouraged on site. And

Kate Bravery:

we asked the 32 why? And they said because it's driving up

Kate Bravery:

productivity, and it's increasing employee engagement

Kate Bravery:

back to that quit quitting. That one ones that said they're

Kate Bravery:

encouraging more on site said it's because our people aren't

Kate Bravery:

learning the corporate behaviors they need. Our managers have

Kate Bravery:

difficulty managing remote and hybrid teams, we've had an

Kate Bravery:

increase in mental health issues. And we're worried about

Kate Bravery:

cyber risk. And I think I think that just shows that you haven't

Kate Bravery:

got it right. And we need to invest more in managers in

Kate Bravery:

having a constant conversation around flex working, because

Kate Bravery:

what what I wanted six months ago was different to what I want

Kate Bravery:

now. And it's gonna probably be different in six months time.

Kate Bravery:

The companies that are getting it right, are recognizing it's

Kate Bravery:

not a once and done, it's nuanced to the job, and what how

Kate Bravery:

you show up in the job. And it might be influenced by people's

Kate Bravery:

life stages and the lifestyle contract that they want.

Susan Ney:

Yes, yes, yes. And yes. Those those those critical

Susan Ney:

conversations, and I love that the new generations in

Susan Ney:

particular are insisting that that we actually have those.

Susan Ney:

Yeah.

Kate Bravery:

Before we're asking them, which I think is

Kate Bravery:

good, because we're not playing catch up the boy, it can be

Kate Bravery:

overwhelming.

Susan Ney:

Yeah, it can. And that, you know, I certainly feel

Susan Ney:

for people who are over seeing people, because if you're not

Susan Ney:

provided those skills, of having those kinds of conversations of

Susan Ney:

recognizing that those conversations are really

Susan Ney:

important, which certainly wasn't in any of the accredited

Susan Ney:

education that that I received. And I suspect that that it

Susan Ney:

probably, I know it's gotten better. So those are also

Susan Ney:

positives. Just continuing to think about the whole

Susan Ney:

individualization you speak about what you term as a

Susan Ney:

principal agent being an important stakeholder because of

Susan Ney:

course, there's many stakeholders and all of the

Susan Ney:

stuff that we're talking about. Now, as I read the section like

Susan Ney:

the Union came to mind. And my involvement with unionization is

Susan Ney:

that it's all about the collective. It's not about

Susan Ney:

individual interests. Have you found in your work that unions

Susan Ney:

are starting to become more like recognizing more of that some of

Susan Ney:

the old historic rote step seniority? Not paying attention

Susan Ney:

to individual it's all about the collective is starting to change

Susan Ney:

to this people age new reality.

Kate Bravery:

I think you're absolutely right, Susan. We do

Kate Bravery:

need to evolve, how we interact with work councils and unions

Kate Bravery:

around the world. And they need to evolve how they work with us

Kate Bravery:

because we've got a talent crisis coming. We've really

Kate Bravery:

struggled to meet employees expectations around the world on

Kate Bravery:

pay, given the cost of living crisis. We've got people going

Kate Bravery:

to stripes because Because of AI coming in and infringing the

Kate Bravery:

copyrights on their work, or disrupting their work,

Kate Bravery:

livelihood because of the opportunity to do more platform

Kate Bravery:

business. So we are rife with conversations. And one of the

Kate Bravery:

things I benefited from on writing this book is having

Kate Bravery:

people from different parts of the world. So Ilya bionic, who's

Kate Bravery:

the president of Korea, Mercer is based in the US. And chi

Kate Bravery:

Anderson, who leads on transformation in Europe is

Kate Bravery:

based in Germany. And it was just wonderful comparing Germany

Kate Bravery:

and the US. And it's interesting, because in Germany,

Kate Bravery:

we see that we look pay disparity between new hires, and

Kate Bravery:

legacy, minuscule, because of the work councils. You know, in

Kate Bravery:

the US, do we have investors in the US saying, this hiring, and

Kate Bravery:

then riffs and then hiring and then riffs, is actually not the

Kate Bravery:

most respectful way to manage talent, and actually, is a

Kate Bravery:

signal that maybe you don't have a sustainable people model, you

Kate Bravery:

don't see that in other parts of the world where it's more

Kate Bravery:

difficult to let people go. Now, there's the flip of that. You've

Kate Bravery:

also got some of those in more ageing economies, where we've

Kate Bravery:

got to bring more vibrance, and we've got to be able to make

Kate Bravery:

changes more quickly, because employees, the individualistic

Kate Bravery:

piece you were talking about is demanding it. And so I think

Kate Bravery:

both parties are recognizing that if we're going to bring the

Kate Bravery:

agility into our talent models we need, we need a different way

Kate Bravery:

of working together. Because you know, this year, although

Kate Bravery:

executives around the world are bullish on growth, I think got

Kate Bravery:

predicting, you know, 10 to 15%. top line, one in two says, we

Kate Bravery:

don't have enough agility in our talent models to deliver on that

Kate Bravery:

growth. And that is related to some of this rigidity, which has

Kate Bravery:

come from these long, protracted discussions on all aspects of

Kate Bravery:

work, and work negotiation.

Susan Ney:

Thank you. We're moving to AI. Choose seven talks

Susan Ney:

about skills being the real currency of work. Can you talk a

Susan Ney:

little bit about what you mean by skills? And let's move into

Susan Ney:

AI? What's the impact? You talked in the book about when

Susan Ney:

you your skills become devalued? By AI, that they also will take

Susan Ney:

a hit in adjacent fields. So over to you, let's let's get

Susan Ney:

into this very important. Development. Yeah, well,

Kate Bravery:

you're you're now on my favorite topics. So I am

Kate Bravery:

as fascinated as everybody else's on AI coming into our

Kate Bravery:

workplaces, and what will be the impact on the workforce, the

Kate Bravery:

future skills that is needed in that workforce, and actually how

Kate Bravery:

we will work together with more human machine teaming. And

Kate Bravery:

although I think we all agree that, you know, AI is not going

Kate Bravery:

to take away whole jobs. In fact, there's a really nice

Kate Bravery:

quote. I'm gonna forget the gentleman's name. There's a

Kate Bravery:

really nice quote by Stephen Baldwin. He said, AI won't take

Kate Bravery:

your job, but someone who knows AI Better with You probably

Kate Bravery:

will. And I think you're right is about the skill. In an even

Kate Bravery:

though, AI augments at the task level, our research shows that

Kate Bravery:

up to 80% of roles will be touched by AI. And what we saw

Kate Bravery:

in our research is executives, are expecting some real

Kate Bravery:

productivity loss by bringing AI into the firm, the majority of

Kate Bravery:

them think it's going to be at least 30%, which is staggering.

Kate Bravery:

And employees are worried about what does that mean for me? Are

Kate Bravery:

you going to expect me to work harder, because quite frankly,

Kate Bravery:

I'm already feeling depleted, distracted, exhausted. And so I

Kate Bravery:

think we do need to kind of bridge that knowledge gap so

Kate Bravery:

that employees know, how are you bringing AI into the firm? What

Kate Bravery:

will be the likely impact on my future job? And to your point,

Kate Bravery:

what are the skills that I need to stay relevant and to stay

Kate Bravery:

employable over the longer term? And I think some companies do a

Kate Bravery:

really good job in having that conversation with their

Kate Bravery:

employees, and they're much more transparent about AI and future

Kate Bravery:

skills, and others. There's just a void. And of course, when

Kate Bravery:

there's that void, people get uncertain about their job

Kate Bravery:

prospects. And you and I know when people get concerned about

Kate Bravery:

their future job prospects, they play it safe. And then we don't

Kate Bravery:

get the innovation And the boldness and the curiosity that

Kate Bravery:

we actually need to usher in where we could be in the future

Kate Bravery:

of work. So there is a lot really going on on on the AI

Kate Bravery:

front, that that will impact jobs and livelihoods. And I

Kate Bravery:

think the most important thing for everybody in the call is to

Kate Bravery:

be in that conversation. You know, if you're in HR, listen to

Kate Bravery:

the HR practitioners that are experimenting with AI and hear

Kate Bravery:

how they're doing it. Be curious about it, play with chat, GPG if

Kate Bravery:

you're not using it, at least on a weekly basis, and for

Kate Bravery:

employees, challenge yourself, you know, what are the new

Kate Bravery:

skills coming into my industry? And where do I sit compared to

Kate Bravery:

those skills? And if the future job I hope to have disappears?

Kate Bravery:

What are two different skills? One of the things that I really

Kate Bravery:

like that the Singapore government does really well, now

Kate Bravery:

Singapore, smaller country, so I understand that they have a

Kate Bravery:

Skills Council, the on LinkedIn published what skills I can

Kate Bravery:

become more in demand. So play a real premium, because they're

Kate Bravery:

very specialist, and what skills actually allow people to do

Kate Bravery:

multiple jobs. And I love that because they want to give a

Kate Bravery:

learning account for everybody to spend on training as they

Kate Bravery:

like, it's direct to employee direct to individuals, not

Kate Bravery:

through the company, but that allows individuals to say, Do I

Kate Bravery:

want to learn really highly specialized skills and go for

Kate Bravery:

gold? Or do I want to learn skills that allow me to do lots

Kate Bravery:

of different jobs, but I love the power that it gives to

Kate Bravery:

individuals in that market to control their future? And I

Kate Bravery:

don't feel we have that everywhere around the world?

Susan Ney:

No, and I think there's a lot of people that

Susan Ney:

really struggle with sort of knowing or knowing where to go

Susan Ney:

for that kind of information, and that our organizations could

Susan Ney:

be doing a much better job in providing that kind of guidance.

Susan Ney:

Yeah.

Kate Bravery:

No, I was gonna say, I think the imperative is

Kate Bravery:

now this whole movement away from jobs to skills powered

Kate Bravery:

organizations, is picking up pace. This year, the amount of

Kate Bravery:

companies that invested in talent, insight, tools, talent,

Kate Bravery:

marketplace, scope, tools, scraping your background to make

Kate Bravery:

judgment on what skills you have, or you don't have, is a

Kate Bravery:

train that is running. And I think individuals need to take

Kate Bravery:

control over that narrative as much as they can. Me leaning in

Kate Bravery:

making sure the right content is on LinkedIn, using chat GPT to

Kate Bravery:

say, what skills should I have in my job? What are the best

Kate Bravery:

people in my job? Have? You know, what are two or three

Kate Bravery:

potential jobs? If you have these skills? You know, getting

Kate Bravery:

a quick yourself? Because I agree with you, some companies

Kate Bravery:

are lagging on communicating where the future is headed, and

Kate Bravery:

what skills will be needed

Susan Ney:

those critical conversations again? Yeah,

Susan Ney:

absolutely. And that we all have to be lifelong learners. It's

Susan Ney:

not about getting a degree. And you know, that's, that's it,

Susan Ney:

I've got my I've got my education, I don't need to do

Susan Ney:

anything more. It's just that's not our world anymore. Hey, I

Susan Ney:

want to take us to some of this other talent GPT for HR

Susan Ney:

technology, given that this is about HR inside out, you talk

Susan Ney:

about it redubbed redesigned the experience of talent acquisition

Susan Ney:

and Talent Management for both users and for HR, can you talk a

Susan Ney:

little bit about the impact this is having and how it works?

Kate Bravery:

Yes, I think one of the exciting things that's

Kate Bravery:

come into the HR world, I think, pretty early has been how AI is

Kate Bravery:

being used to understand what skills are available in the

Kate Bravery:

talent marketplace, and understand what skills the

Kate Bravery:

people in our workforce have today. And that's allowing much

Kate Bravery:

better matching at a skills level to the tasks now on, you

Kate Bravery:

know, that can enable you to hire the right talent with a lot

Kate Bravery:

more confidence than we could in the future. But the bit that

Kate Bravery:

I've got really excited about is how that thinking is being

Kate Bravery:

implied is being turned in house. And it's being used to

Kate Bravery:

say, you know, if you have these skills, if you gather these two

Kate Bravery:

or three other skills, you'd actually have more opportunity

Kate Bravery:

to go into jobs in the future. And hey, here are a couple of

Kate Bravery:

internal gigs that can get you that experience because you

Kate Bravery:

mentioned there about training. We don't have time for training

Kate Bravery:

anymore. I think we've got to make sure that we are creating

Kate Bravery:

space for learning the skills of the next job in the jobs of

Kate Bravery:

today. And I think talent marketplaces, internal gigs,

Kate Bravery:

special projects, whether you do them using tech or not using

Kate Bravery:

Tech is a fantastic way that we can, we can build the skills

Kate Bravery:

that we need in the in the jobs that people are doing today. And

Kate Bravery:

again, it's what young people are craving as well. So I think

Kate Bravery:

AI being used to that's really exciting. The other piece that

Kate Bravery:

I'm seeing AI being used within that context, is actually

Kate Bravery:

matching people who are, who can be skills mentors, because

Kate Bravery:

they're really strong at a particular skill, or they've

Kate Bravery:

learned a particular technical skill with people who've

Kate Bravery:

identified that's a skill I need. And so I think that human

Kate Bravery:

matching, when you can match people up has really worked, I

Kate Bravery:

think, being able to also then link that to your LMS system,

Kate Bravery:

and have a much more connected up conversation between, I've

Kate Bravery:

got a special project over here and I need to fill it, this

Kate Bravery:

person needs to have, you know, these technical skills, these

Kate Bravery:

behavioral skills, and we'd love them to work in one function of

Kate Bravery:

our business and one particular location. Give me all the people

Kate Bravery:

who've got that, give me all the people who might be a retention

Kate Bravery:

risk, give me all the people who would benefit most from

Kate Bravery:

developing them, overlay them together. And then tell me how

Kate Bravery:

we get the best return for who we give that job to not just

Kate Bravery:

return for the organization, but return for the individual in

Kate Bravery:

terms of investing in their future. And that's what some of

Kate Bravery:

the generative AI overlay is allowing us to do. And isn't

Kate Bravery:

that wonderful, because you and I spent a lot of time on

Kate Bravery:

spreadsheets, looking at lots of different systems. And we

Kate Bravery:

wouldn't even want to ask an analyst to do that work, because

Kate Bravery:

it's a heavy lift. But that's what we want to do. We want to

Kate Bravery:

make sure that every opportunity isn't just filled today, but as

Kate Bravery:

a learning opportunity for someone for tomorrow.

Susan Ney:

It really is exciting. I mean, you referenced

Susan Ney:

spreadsheets, I've worked in organizations where those kinds

Susan Ney:

of things weren't even gathered. And so there, there would be no

Susan Ney:

opportunity of seeing that, you know, person X might be a great

Susan Ney:

mentor or person why has those skills, perhaps not being used

Susan Ney:

in their current position, but absolutely, could be, you know,

Susan Ney:

could be placed in something else that would give them a

Susan Ney:

growth opportunity.

Kate Bravery:

Yeah, and you're, you're at the mercy of your

Kate Bravery:

boss. If your boss was in a role where he was well networked and

Kate Bravery:

very visible, you might get great opportunities. If you

Kate Bravery:

weren't so lucky, your field of vision was also constrained. And

Kate Bravery:

I think what's exciting about this new technology is it

Kate Bravery:

doesn't just democratize opportunity, but it also

Kate Bravery:

increases visibility of your skills, motivations and

Kate Bravery:

capabilities. And I think that's exciting. Oh,

Susan Ney:

God, absolutely. Hate truth. A the supply is

Susan Ney:

unchained. How's that specifically related to what you

Susan Ney:

call the people age? Just really quickly? Well,

Kate Bravery:

actually, you know, one of the truths I think

Kate Bravery:

that we learned through the pandemic was, work can be done

Kate Bravery:

in ways it was never originally conceived to be done. And it can

Kate Bravery:

be done across cultural, temporal geographic boundaries.

Kate Bravery:

And as you start to explore that, you realize, wow,

Kate Bravery:

actually, we can think about our site selection in new ways, not

Kate Bravery:

being close to the customer, because that's maybe not our

Kate Bravery:

critical gap. But being close to where those skills are, those

Kate Bravery:

skills are at the right cost. And so that's really, you know,

Kate Bravery:

added a new dimension to sort of labor arbitrage, and a new

Kate Bravery:

dimension to how we can think about fueling our business with

Kate Bravery:

those really hard to get skills by maybe looking at untapped

Kate Bravery:

populations that have sort of skill adjacencies. And that's

Kate Bravery:

what we mean that supply is no longer chained to a job is no

Kate Bravery:

longer chained to a location. It doesn't even need to be chained

Kate Bravery:

to an organization. And so we talk a lot here about the

Kate Bravery:

opportunities of thinking about your talent supply chain,

Kate Bravery:

thinking about more network organizational structures with

Kate Bravery:

suppliers and customers. And so yeah, we want to encourage

Kate Bravery:

companies to embrace that. And to think about managing supply

Kate Bravery:

chain with the same level of diversity that they would their

Kate Bravery:

business supply chains to make sure that you don't get exposed

Kate Bravery:

by not developing the skills that you need for tomorrow.

Susan Ney:

Well, it's about being creative. I mean, we're

Susan Ney:

dealing with a skill shortage and that's not getting any

Susan Ney:

easier.

Kate Bravery:

Yes, necessity really is the mother of

Kate Bravery:

invention. Isn't that precious? Just going to increase as you

Kate Bravery:

know, we still grapple with labor petition petition, excuse

Kate Bravery:

me, as we grapple with labor petition with labor

Kate Bravery:

participation rates as we grapple with Labor potential.

Kate Bravery:

Yeah. As we, as we grapple with democratic. Yes, yeah. And that

Kate Bravery:

will only get more acute as we look at demographics. And

Kate Bravery:

especially if we aren't doing a good job of keeping some of our

Kate Bravery:

more tenured knowledge workers, as some of our research shows,

Kate Bravery:

we're not at the moment.

Susan Ney:

Thank you. Truth nine, intelligence is getting

Susan Ney:

amplified. And it's about having smarts, knowing where to go to

Susan Ney:

how to acquire what we need. We talked a little bit about that.

Susan Ney:

And how that has the opportunity to be an intelligence equalizer.

Kate Bravery:

Well, we talk a lot there about the use of large

Kate Bravery:

language models, obviously writing a book, when we wrote

Kate Bravery:

the book, we're halfway through the book, Gen AI burst into the

Kate Bravery:

scene. And we thought, Oh, is it a thing? I think it is. And then

Kate Bravery:

obviously, we have to rewrite the book. And in fact, we

Kate Bravery:

actually put the whole 10 truths into a large language model. And

Kate Bravery:

as the machine, if you'd read this book, how would you manage

Kate Bravery:

differently as a result, and for me, that was the first time I'd

Kate Bravery:

had a machine, give me advice about how to manage my team that

Kate Bravery:

was probably better than what I was intending to do on Monday.

Kate Bravery:

So that was a bit of an eye opener for me. And if you read

Kate Bravery:

if you buy the book, you can actually see that exchange,

Kate Bravery:

because we just put it in directly. But yeah, it's always

Kate Bravery:

a bit worrying when you write about AI a year before the book

Kate Bravery:

releases. But what we talk about there is, from those early

Kate Bravery:

lessons, what is the opportunity to bring human capabilities and

Kate Bravery:

machine capabilities together, because when you've got human

Kate Bravery:

intelligence, and machine intelligence, together, you get

Kate Bravery:

amplified intelligence. And I think we always knew that was

Kate Bravery:

coming back from Garry Kasparov. I don't know if you remember him

Kate Bravery:

when he was beaten by Big Blue at chess, I think it's back in

Kate Bravery:

the 80s. It he was, you know, he was knocked down by that. But he

Kate Bravery:

came back. And you know, he said, actually, the brightest

Kate Bravery:

chess grandmaster can't beat the computer. And the brightest

Kate Bravery:

computer can't, can't, you know, and the brightest chess master

Kate Bravery:

will struggle against the computer, and the grids, the

Kate Bravery:

computer that but what he also found was an average human with

Kate Bravery:

an average computer can beat them both. And it was the

Kate Bravery:

combination that gave the lift. And that actually should be a

Kate Bravery:

whole new form of chess, which, you know, is now commonplace.

Kate Bravery:

But what he was talking about there is to unlock that puts

Kate Bravery:

that human potential in a machine, augmented world, you've

Kate Bravery:

got to understand the process, you've got to understand how to

Kate Bravery:

work with the machine. And that's what we're doing. We're

Kate Bravery:

prompt engineering, as we are beginning to learn how to

Kate Bravery:

converse with machines. And that's going to get on steroids,

Kate Bravery:

when we get conversational AI, it's going to change the way we

Kate Bravery:

work, it will change jobs, it will change what we learn, it

Kate Bravery:

will change what we don't learn. And, you know, getting ahead of

Kate Bravery:

that, and experimenting that I think is one of the most

Kate Bravery:

important imperatives for HR today, it's not a digital thing,

Kate Bravery:

it's an HR thing, because it's about how humans will work. And

Kate Bravery:

the lift that will get by working with machines.

Susan Ney:

I just said I love the example you gave of even

Susan Ney:

within school system of teachers having to, you know, how do you

Susan Ney:

how do you tell whether or not this essay was written by the

Susan Ney:

student and and techniques that are needing to be put into

Susan Ney:

place? So similarly? Yeah, how do we work positively with this?

Susan Ney:

It's not going to go away.

Kate Bravery:

Now, let's see, I have two young children. I have

Kate Bravery:

a nine and 11 year old. And it's been fascinating, because, you

Kate Bravery:

know, during the pandemic, and just after the pandemic, there

Kate Bravery:

was all fear about because you got to submit three times once,

Kate Bravery:

once with with the chat GPT, once without and then once

Kate Bravery:

combined. All of that is dissipated there, I think,

Kate Bravery:

because there is a recognition. It's just a tool. It's a multi

Kate Bravery:

purpose tool. And my kids are actually got pretty savvy at

Kate Bravery:

saying, Yeah, that's rubbish mom. Obviously, sometimes they

Kate Bravery:

say that to me, but they're also saying, God to check GPT. And I

Kate Bravery:

am glad they're learning the lessons now. Because it is just

Kate Bravery:

going to be the way we work. But what I worry about is they're

Kate Bravery:

not doing this goes back to that very first trend. They're not

Kate Bravery:

doing the hard graft that you and I did. And the reason why I

Kate Bravery:

can look at an engagement survey or a personality profile or a

Kate Bravery:

comp sheet and go at something's off here is because I looked at

Kate Bravery:

lots of them as an analyst. And so that ability to thin slice

Kate Bravery:

and bring that wealth of experience to go that

Kate Bravery:

something's wrong there. They won't have that because they're

Kate Bravery:

not going to do that type of analytical work now. Would that

Kate Bravery:

bother them? so often Yes. But that's, that's something we've

Kate Bravery:

got to consider. Mm hmm.

Susan Ney:

Last truth, truth number 10. And I think it nicely

Susan Ney:

ties everything together is this sustainability starts with

Susan Ney:

people. And you stress that knowing what different people

Susan Ney:

want from the work experience is paramount. We've talked a lot

Susan Ney:

about that, especially if we don't want to find ourselves out

Susan Ney:

of people, we've talked about that. It's a big shift in my

Susan Ney:

experience of working within organizations, and how they

Susan Ney:

continue to function. And really is going to call for some pretty

Susan Ney:

big system changes. You talked in your book about the need for

Susan Ney:

deeper partnerships underpinned by mutual respect, humility,

Susan Ney:

transparency, I think we've talked about a lot of that. And

Susan Ney:

you've seen that start to happen in the examples that you provide

Susan Ney:

in your book. Any comments, on truth, and tam about

Susan Ney:

sustainability? And what what this is all I agree with you

Susan Ney:

comment,

Kate Bravery:

Susan, I do think it is a reset. But gosh, if

Kate Bravery:

there's ever been a time to make that reset, it's now we've just

Kate Bravery:

been talking about the opportunities afforded by

Kate Bravery:

generative AI. Most executives think is going to give a 30%

Kate Bravery:

productivity gain. And we have a choice. Do we take that

Kate Bravery:

productivity gain? And say, let's share it with all

Kate Bravery:

stakeholders, and maybe put investment for upskilling put

Kate Bravery:

investment for health and well being initiatives or return them

Kate Bravery:

some time in a four day workweek? Or do we flow it to

Kate Bravery:

the bottom line, and return it directly to shareholders. And if

Kate Bravery:

we fundamentally believe that the purpose of an organization

Kate Bravery:

isn't just to deliver profit, but to keep our people

Kate Bravery:

employable, to do good in the world, to make a difference to

Kate Bravery:

the environment, all the things that I think we should be

Kate Bravery:

focused on, and our young people want to see us focused on. I

Kate Bravery:

think there's, there's, there's pause, because this productivity

Kate Bravery:

game changer, and it gives us some space, it gives us some

Kate Bravery:

breathing room to maybe make this reset. Because if we don't

Kate Bravery:

meet that reset, and really think about what's the purpose

Kate Bravery:

of our organization, what do we want to do for all our

Kate Bravery:

stakeholders, we will just keep on the treadmill that we're on.

Kate Bravery:

And as we shared work is not working for everyone. One in

Kate Bravery:

four people don't want to work at all. And 40% believe that

Kate Bravery:

work is fundamentally broken. Because we hope to work, we get

Kate Bravery:

away with a lot. But this there is an opportunity to build more

Kate Bravery:

inspiring, more intuitive work environments. And it's a

Kate Bravery:

virtuous circle, because those are the ones that the best

Kate Bravery:

talent are going to flock to. They're the ones that the best

Kate Bravery:

talent are going to stay with and move forward. And yet in the

Kate Bravery:

book, we have some companies that's made that bold moves. I

Kate Bravery:

talk about the Patagonia book, which is Patagonia book, which

Kate Bravery:

is again, I talk about the Patagonia book, Let my people go

Kate Bravery:

surfing, where they need to go look to say, we are no longer

Kate Bravery:

delivering on our values, and they did a fundamental reset.

Kate Bravery:

And then they basically taught ethics to their workforce to

Kate Bravery:

make sure they could execute on it. We also talk in the book

Kate Bravery:

about Unilever who listened to the fact that many of their

Kate Bravery:

people wanted side gigs, or they were more tenured and wanted to

Kate Bravery:

have more time off, but they love being part of the

Kate Bravery:

organization. And they figured out how to give job security,

Kate Bravery:

compensation benefits, or some level of security and flexible

Kate Bravery:

working. I mean, they're the two awesome people. And so we're

Kate Bravery:

entering a world where there doesn't need to be these trade

Kate Bravery:

offs. But it does take some bold actions to reset. And honestly,

Kate Bravery:

I think HR is in the best position to lead the charge.

Susan Ney:

Thank you. One of the challenges and you spoke about

Susan Ney:

it right at the end of the book is organizations resistance to

Susan Ney:

change. And I think you've just given us two excellent examples

Susan Ney:

of organizations that have managed to make that change

Susan Ney:

stick successfully as we bring the podcast to a close, any

Susan Ney:

other thoughts on on that point? is the change in organizations

Susan Ney:

is always a struggle?

Kate Bravery:

Yeah. You know, people, although I do think

Kate Bravery:

people have more of a relationship with their

Kate Bravery:

organization, and they want to work for a brand that they're

Kate Bravery:

proud of that's really come through in the voice day. I also

Kate Bravery:

think people are inspired by people. And it does take a bold

Kate Bravery:

leader, to be convicted, that there is a different way to do

Kate Bravery:

things work could feel different work could look different. We

Kate Bravery:

could all be working different to pull the charge forward. I

Kate Bravery:

think if we keep tinkering around the outside with our

Kate Bravery:

reward our talent, I help them benefits. We don't make the

Kate Bravery:

world of HR particularly inspiring. And we miss this

Kate Bravery:

opportunity to inspire the workforce to be part of a big

Kate Bravery:

workforce revolution. And that, to me, is just such a lost

Kate Bravery:

opportunity. Yes, I think pushing our transformation

Kate Bravery:

agendas and our change agendas, when people are feeling fatigued

Kate Bravery:

and exhausted and distracted, is tough. But when you get it

Kate Bravery:

right, everything falls into place. And we've seen enough

Kate Bravery:

green shoots of companies being bold and challenging the way

Kate Bravery:

it's done, to give us confidence that the world of work that we

Kate Bravery:

experienced today shouldn't look like that for my kids.

Susan Ney:

Love it. And when you talk about both leader, we're

Susan Ney:

not talking the CEOs or the the the C suite executives. We're

Susan Ney:

talking you as leaders, overseeing people, and taking

Susan Ney:

the steps that are available to you being creative, being

Susan Ney:

curious, engaging, having those conversations. That's really

Susan Ney:

what leadership is about. And bold leadership is incorporates

Susan Ney:

much of what we've talked about. Kate, any last thoughts,

Susan Ney:

anything I've not thought to talk to you about or ask you

Susan Ney:

about before we close?

Kate Bravery:

Now, it's been an absolute pleasure speaking to

Kate Bravery:

you today, one, because I know you read the book inside out,

Kate Bravery:

because I'm worried about coming on. But to know, I think we've

Kate Bravery:

touched on so many points today. And you know, I hope we have

Kate Bravery:

managed to inspire people on the corm that there are some bold

Kate Bravery:

leaders and I agree with you, you know, it can be people right

Kate Bravery:

in their first or second job, that are challenging how we

Kate Bravery:

work, and they are figuring out ways to make work more

Kate Bravery:

exhilarating. And I want to be part of that journey, because I

Kate Bravery:

think it's really exciting. Oh,

Susan Ney:

me too. It's, it's it is exciting. And that's why I

Susan Ney:

loved your book. Oh my god. It's easy to read. It's well

Susan Ney:

researched. It just makes so much sense. And love the work

Susan Ney:

that you're doing with Mercer's the future of work. Wow, that

Susan Ney:

that's cool. I

Kate Bravery:

think it's a great talent Immerser, and two

Kate Bravery:

wonderful co authors to the book as well. So that's why it's so

Kate Bravery:

rich.

Susan Ney:

And I've worked with Mercer's within Canada, and

Susan Ney:

you're with a wonderful organization. So thank you,

Susan Ney:

Kate, thank you so much for making the time to be with us

Susan Ney:

here today. Have Kate shared with me, this has been a long

Susan Ney:

day for her with a number of these kinds of opportunities of

Susan Ney:

making a positive difference. So very much appreciate that you

Susan Ney:

said yes to this one.

Kate Bravery:

It's been great, thank you.

Susan Ney:

I've put your contact information in the shownotes to

Susan Ney:

the podcast if people would like to get in touch with you. And

Susan Ney:

certainly we'll put a link to the book if anyone is interested

Susan Ney:

in purchasing a copy. And again, as Kate alluded to, I took lots

Susan Ney:

of notes. There's so many honors. Thank you.

Kate Bravery:

Can I agree with you, we could have spent another

Kate Bravery:

two hours talking about that. And I'm impressed that you

Kate Bravery:

managed to get it in the time that we did. And, Susan, I look

Kate Bravery:

forward to the conversations offline with yourself and

Kate Bravery:

anybody else who wants to reach out on LinkedIn, you know,

Kate Bravery:

myself and my co authors got incredibly passionate about some

Kate Bravery:

of the things that we say in the book. They are bold, but

Kate Bravery:

hopefully will spark a conversation. But thank you all

Kate Bravery:

for listening. And thank you for inviting me on Susan.

Susan Ney:

Thank you. It is time for us to go to our listeners.

Susan Ney:

Thank you for listening in and remember, dare to soar because

Susan Ney:

we believe you can't it Susan and Kate signing out. Have a

Susan Ney:

great rest of the day everyone. Kate, it's been a pleasure.

Susan Ney:

Thank

Kate Bravery:

you. It's been lovely

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About the Podcast

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HR Inside Out
Demystifying HR & People Management

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About your host

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Susan Ney

Susan has worked with people all her life. As a human resources professional she has specialized in all aspects of employment, from hiring to retirement. She got her start as a national representative for a large Canadian union. After pursuing an undergrad degree in business administration, Susan transitioned to HR management, where she aspired to bring both employee and management perspectives to her work. She retired from her multi-decade career in HR to pursue writing and consulting, and to be able, in her words, to “colour outside the lines.” She promises some fun and lots of learning in this, her podcast HR Inside Out: Demystifying HR & People Management. Susan also holds a Master of Arts in Leadership and Training.